Quick Thoughts: Maria Fantappie on Syria’s Kurds

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Quick Thoughts: Maria Fantappie on Syria’s Kurds

By : Maria Fantappie

[The Syrian Kurds are playing an increasingly prominent role in that country’s conflict, and in recent years Democratic Union Party (PYD) forces have seized effective control of most territories in northern Syria with substantial Kurdish populations. In March 2016, shortly after the PYD was excluded from participation in diplomatic talks hosted by the United Nations in Geneva, the Syrian Kurdish party proclaimed that the self-administered territories it had previously established would henceforth constitute a federal region within Syria. Meanwhile, Turkey, which sees the PYD as an extension of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) with which it has been in conflict since the 1980s, has pledged to prevent a further expansion of PYD power in northern Syria. To get a better understanding of Syrian Kurdish politics and their relationship to the broader conflict in Syria, and as part of a series of Quick Thoughts with International Crisis Group Middle East Analysts, Jadaliyya Co-Editor and Quick Thoughts series editor Mouin Rabbani interviewed Maria Fantappie, Senior Analyst with the organization, who has led its research on the Kurdish issue since the beginning of the conflict and recently paid an extended visit to Syria’s Kurdish enclaves. The Quick Thoughts series provides background, context, and detail to issues that are, or should be, currently in the news.]

Jadaliyya (J): Syria`s Kurds, and the Democratic Union Party (PYD) and its armed wing, the People’s Protection Units (YPG) in particular, are perhaps the only party to emerge strengthened from the Syria conflict. How do you explain this?

Maria Fantappie (MF): The territorial expansion of the PYD/YPG is more an accidental result of the conflict than the result of a premeditated initiative. But there is no doubt the organization sought to capitalize on opportunities as they arose and has managed to do so effectively.

When regime forces pulled back from parts of north and northeastern Syria in 2012 in order to concentrate on defending core territories, the PYD was able to rapidly dispatch a reserve of experienced fighters. Most had received training from the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) that operates in Turkey and possessed the technical know-how and financial resources to set up an administration in Syria’s Kurdish-populated areas. For the regime and its backers, letting in fighters trained by the PKK was a tactical move, serving as leverage against Turkey and Syrian opposition factions. Subsequently, the US’s desire for trusted partners on the ground to fight Islamic State (IS) meant that the YPG received additional support, allowing it to advance beyond Kurdish-populated areas. And with the Syrian rebels weakened by Russian airstrikes and IS weakened by US ones, the YPG was able to expand across contiguous swathes of the Syrian-Turkish border zone.

The PYD’s strength is however fragile, because it remains dependent on regional rivalries and international interests. The regime will tolerate the PYD’s self-administration only to the extent that it blocks the further expansion of the opposition in northern Syria. Similarly, the Russians and Iranians support it because it hems in Turkey, and the US backs it insofar as it can seize territory from IS. This is why the challenge for the PYD is to consolidate its current military momentum into a lasting political reality, transforming short-term territorial gains achieved with the support of opportunistic partners into strong and stable alliances. In other words, it needs to put in place conditions that will allow it to thrive during a political transition rather than amidst conflict.

(J): What are the PYD/YPG’s objectives in Syria?

(MF): The PYD has formulated its political project rather vaguely, which has allowed the party to change its objectives over time. But it has also dangerously validated – among opposition factions in particular – the perception in Syria of a Kurdish ambition to secede from and break apart Syria. Yet, the PYD/YPG’s underlying aim relates more to the party’s factional interests than to Kurdish aspirations of self-determination. It seeks to anchor its political and military presence in the country, and thereby create leverage for the PKK across Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.

The PYD/YPG professes a project of “democratic autonomy” that identifies decentralization, gender equality and ecology as cardinal principles of governance, but remains vague over key details of this decentralization. For instance, back in 2013, the PYD declared a local administration, comprising three non-contiguous Kurdish-populated enclaves in Syria or “Rojava” (“west” in Kurdish), and staunchly opposed the establishment of a Kurdish federal region similar to neighboring Iraqi Kurdistan. As YPG forces have expanded control across the north, the PYD this year has declared the “Democratic Dederal Region of Rojava”, and called for a federal system. It is unclear whether the movement seeks decentralization or federalism for the entirety of Syria, or alternatively self-rule for the three Kurdish-populated enclaves in the country.

What is clear, however, is that the PYD project has mutated along with its attempts to translate territorial control into political legitimacy. While the PYD/YPG has successfully gained and held territory, it has yet to obtain a seat at the table of political negotiations on Syria, largely due to Turkey’s unfolding conflict with the PYD’s mother party, the PKK. The PYD was pointedly not invited to participate in the gathering of Syrian opposition forces convened in Riyadh in December 2015, nor in the peace talks hosted by the United Nations in Geneva, mostly due to Turkish objections.  This imbalance between the PYD/YPG’s military success and political marginalization has encouraged the movement to invest all its resources in the goal of military expansion as a way to force itself into the diplomatic arena.

(J): Is the PYD being driven primarily by local developments or a more regional Kurdish agenda being formulated by Turkey`s PKK?

(MF): The PYD’s connection to the PKK is integral to its current success in Syria. The PKK’s headquarters in the Qandil mountains of Iraq has provided the PYD with the regional partnership, the funding as well as the military personnel that allowed it to establish self-rule in Syria.

Regardless of how strong the organizational ties between the PKK and the Syrian branches might be, there is no doubt that senior members of the PYD military branch, the YPG, have the same formative experiences as the PKK. Although many of these YPG cadres hail from Syria, they have been socialized in the Qandil mountains where they spent their teenage years receiving military training and ideological instruction on the thought of PKK founder Abdullah Ocalan. They are part of a chain of command that is based in Qandil and that has transnational goals spanning beyond Syria, across Turkey, Iran and Iraq.   

The flow of military personnel from Qandil to Syria matters because the Qandil-trained cadres are the real decision-makers within the self-rule institutions. Despite being formally headed by civilians, these institutions still need security protection in order to operate. Since their inception, military cadres have had the last word over the personnel appointment to local political and judiciary institutions, in matters of law enforcement, and the distribution of resources. The fact that the Kurdish administration was established amidst an unfolding conflict has made it much more difficult for civilians to wrest power from the military. And the more the PYD/YPG prioritizes territorial expansion, the less it invests in handing over institutional power to civilians.  

The dominance of Qandil-trained military cadres has implications beyond Syria. It has created a dangerous interdependence between Turkey and Syria’s Kurdish space. Their quest for more territory ultimately ties this administration to the PKK, linking its political future to the outcome of the Turkey-PKK conflict, and at the same time fueling it. As long as the YPG continues to carve out more territory, capitalizing on rivalries between Turkey on the one hand and the Syrian regime and its allies on the other, this will in practice  strengthen its connection to the PKK. Similarly, the rekindling of the Turkey-PKK conflict has made the PKK dependent on the Syrian Kurds as a space to construct international leverage and regional alliances, as well as a safe haven for its fighters.

(J): Where do Syria’s Kurds fit into diplomatic attempts to resolve the Syrian conflict?

(MF): Kurdish parties have introduced the Turkey-PKK conflict into Syria’s already complicated conflict, and added their own internal rivalries to the already formidable obstacles to a diplomatic deal.

Intra-Kurdish tensions and the struggle between regime supporters and opponents overlap and mutually reinforce each other. Syria’s conflict has revived animosity between the PKK’s leadership in Qandil and the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) of Massoud Barzani over leadership of Kurdish politics. The PKK and KDP have respectively sided with powers that support (Iran) and oppose (Turkey) the Syrian regime, to gain leverage against each other. Both Iran and Turkey also rely on Kurdish parties as proxies for their competing agendas in Syria.

This has led to a situation in which the PYD/YPG maintains exclusive control inside Syria while KDP-affiliated Syrian Kurdish parties maintain exclusive representation of Kurds in the political negotiations. The PYD’s monopoly of power in the Kurdish areas of Syria has helped reignite Turkey’s conflict with the PKK.  Turkish rejection of PYD participation in the Geneva talks will further complicate any peace negotiations. Solving this intra-Kurdish division would not only remove the Kurdish issue from wider regional polarization, but also facilitate a diplomatic solution of the conflict.

(J): Who then represents Syria’s Kurdish population?

(MF): It is important to distinguish between the interests of the Kurdish parties and the interests of the Kurdish population.

Although the PYD/YPG controls substantial territory it does not necessarily represent the Kurds (and non-Kurds) living in these areas. The PYD/YPG has certainly provided Kurds with unprecedented opportunities to express their national identity in Syria, but it is an identity defined by the PYD’s party agenda and ideology, and one that is not necessarily in sync with the interests and aspirations of Syrian Kurds themselves. The core of Syrian Kurdish youth that participated in the protest movement in 2011 acted independently of any Syrian Kurdish party and has since largely left the country for either Europe or neighboring Iraqi Kurdistan. The educated middle class (e.g. judges, engineers, teachers and doctors) is wary of participation in the new PYD-self-administered institutions, viewing them as reflections of a factional agenda and controlled by military cadres at the expense of the Syrian Kurdish population. This is apparent for example in the education system; when the PYD established primary education in the Kurdish language, the Syrian government responded by shutting down state education in most Kurdish populated areas. This eventually deprived Syrian Kurdish children of the possibility of receiving primary school diplomas recognized by the Syrian state.

Such shortcomings in reaching out to the popular base is not unique to the PYD, and also afflicts traditional Kurdish parties like the KDP and Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) in Iraq (and their Syrian affiliates). Parties have accumulated enough military strength and economic resources to temporarily mobilize support, but their structure, ideology and organization no longer seem relevant or capable of leading their people.

(J): The PYD is today aligned with both the US and Russia, and at times appears to be operating in a tacit alliance with Damascus. How does its agenda overlap with that of others, and is it perhaps at risk of biting off more than it can chew?

(MF): The PYD today has many temporary partners but lacks real allies. It functions as a proxy for regional and international powers to challenge rivals without directly confronting them, and as an ally of international powers who do not want to partner with each either. Neither the US nor Russia have provided the PYD with guarantees that they will consider it a legitimate political actor in a future Syria. The prospects of the US advancing in this direction are obstructed by Turkey’s conflict with the PKK, while Russia is restrained by the Syrian regime’s refusal to recognize any Kurdish administration outside or parallel to that of the Syrian state.

The PYD cannot rely solely on territorial expansion. It would be more prudent for it to cultivate long-term alliances, focus on empowering civilians leadership of institutions, and share power with other Kurdish and non-Kurdish parties in order to further entrench itself within local society. Rather than abruptly declare federalism, it would be more prudent to get the regime and the opposition to commit to the recognition of Kurdish rights in Syria and negotiate with both sides the details of decentralization in those provinces populated by Kurds. Five years of conflict in Syria have shown that success is less about how much territory you control than how calculated your strategy is.

Territorial control can easily change from an asset to a liability. In fact, the more the YPG expands territorially, and the more it attempts to translate its territorial achievements into de facto political realities, the more it creates a hostile environment both within Syria and in the region. The YPG expansion and declaration of federalism in northern Syria has already sparked the sensitivity, if not anger, of Arab opposition factions. Its deployment in Aleppo through indirect Russian support in March 2016, puts at risks an American willingness to engage Turkey on PYD participation in the Geneva talks. And if the Syrian regime is today tolerating PYD-led self-rule, it in future might share Turkey’s hostility to the PYD. 

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Quick Thoughts on the Political Landscape of Today's Sudan: A STATUS/الوضع Conversation with Khalid Medani

In this Quick Thoughts conversation with Status/الوضع host Bassam Haddad, Khalid Medani provides a near-comprehensive account of Sudan`s recent past, its internal and external struggles, and current challenges. 

Khalid Mustafa Medani is associate professor of political science and Islamic Studies at McGill University. Prior to his arrival at McGill, Medani taught at Oberlin College and Stanford University. Prof. Medani received a B.A. in Development Studies from Brown University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from the Center for Contemporary Arab Studies at Georgetown University, and an M.A. and Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of California, Berkeley. He has published on the roots of civil conflict and the funding of the Islamic movement in Sudan, the question of informal finance and terrorism in Somalia, the obstacles to state building in Iraq, and the role of informal networks in the rise of Islamic militancy. 

In August 2007, Medani was named a Carneige Scholar on Islam, and was awarded a prestigious grant from the Carnegie Corporation of New York. 

Please find a transcript of the interview below the player. 

  

Khalid Medani Interview Transcript 

Transcribed by Nisreen Zaqout

Bassam Haddad (BH): So, before we start I wanted to get you to introduce yourself. We are very excited to speak with you, because most of what we hear on the news actually does not include Sudan—this also applies to the Arab media not just the media in Europe and the United States. But before we delve into some of the salient issues, I would love to hear from you a brief introduction about yourself.

Khalid Medani (KM): Sure. Well, my name is Khalid Mustafa Medani and I am from Sudan and I teach—I am an Associate Professor of Political Science and Islamic Studies at McGill University. So, one of my areas of expertise is naturally is the contemporary politics in Sudan and I teach a number of courses on African Politics and the Middle East. So, I’m very excited always to speak about current developments, political developments in Sudan because I know it is often neglected, especially given what is going on in the region. So, I know there is a great interest in the politics of Sudan, so I’m always happy to speak about it.

BH: And we will abuse that privilege that you are giving us. So, coming from a very basic perspective—somebody who knows the region but does not hear much about Sudan, unless there is some tectonic shift, or some sort of event that for some reason interferes with the geopolitics of the region and the becomes “newsworthy”. But beyond the headlines and beyond some of these events, can you tell us if somebody is beginning to look into what is going on in the country? Can you tell us a little bit about what are the broad contours of developments in the recent years or months?

KM: Sure, it is impossible to talk about Sudan without talking about the separation of the country in 2011. I think most people know that Sudan, the nation-state, was divided and South Sudan seceded and became independent in 2011. So, that is in itself an important agenda, theme or a “newsworthy” theme that I think the region and the rest of the world should pay attention to. Especially when it comes to what are the consequences for a country like Sudan and a country in the region when it formally splits out? So, on one level, you know, Sudan represents this example of what happens? What are the political and social consequences when one of our big countries in the region—both an African country and an Arabic speaking country -- splits up? I think that people in the region are very interested in that because it rarely happens officially and formally like that. But given what is happening in the region -- the fragmentation of many other states along either sectarian, ethnic or different clan lines -- Sudan is really important because it serves as a cautionary tale, but also, can serve as a lesson of what happens and how to deal with real deep division in such a big country. So, the consequences of the split are really something that people should pay attention to. And those, of course, have to do with the consequences in the North, in Sudan, Sudan proper, so to speak, or rather the original Sudan with the capital Khartoum. And of course, the new country of South Sudan.

I think probably, what your listener should focus on, in terms of South Sudan, is that for the past twenty months or so—and that is a long time—South Sudan had a very bitter civil conflict that has turned into, really, an almost genocidal conflict between different tribal groups in South Sudan. And that has been going on for as long as twenty months. And the humanitarian toll is unspeakable. It is very difficult to describe -- not only the kinds of killing that happen, but also the famine and also the displacement of so many people in the country. So, that is there, the humanitarian crisis there that is of course, you know, originated in a political crisis and a rivalry between the leader of South Sudan, Salva Kiir, and the rebel leader by the name of Riek Machar. So, we want to first of all, really highlight that there is a huge hereditarian, deep civil conflict between tribes that is of astronomical tragic proportions. And I think that people are interested in that. I think that what makes this conflict also a regional conflict is that it is, of course, a country that borders Sudan but also Kenya, Uganda, the DRC (Democratic Republic of Congo). So, it has a spill-over effect in instability across the region and of course there is the issue of oil in South Sudan which has involved so many international actors -- the United States and China being central. And this kind of oil, these resources, the resource of oil, has led to a real kind of competition and the source of, really, violence, between these different leaders who mobilize their ethnic groups -- either the Dinka on the part of Salva Kiir, the president, or the Nuer on the part of Riek Machar. So, that is something to keep in mind.

Now, to bring you up-to-date, and for your listeners, this is the tragic and very sad part of the story. But another part that, hopefully, will be hopeful that we really have to see is the very fragile peace agreement signed this August between these two rebels that is a long document. But there are three elements that people should be interested in, if you turn to South Sudan, and that is that the agreement called for immediate ceasefire, it calls for the reintegration of the rebel forces into a national army—South Sudan National Army—and it calls for an interim government that represents both factions, both major factions. Although nighty-six percent or more of this interim government will be represented by factions of the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement—that is the major political party that runs the state. And so, the idea is to have an interim government and after that elections that would legitimize the new state of South Sudan and hopefully stop the violence. The cautionary aspect of this peace agreement is number one: the violence is continued, the conflict is continued, especially in oil-rich states in South Sudan—most notably a state called Unity with a lot of oil. So, despite this peace agreement, its implementation had not really been realized because there is a deep conflict over resources. And of course political rivalry definitely has continued and, of course, it threatens the peace agreement—that is important. Another important point that people do not know—this is why I emphasize that the majority of those who are going to be in the interim government, if it does materialize, are from Sudan People’s Liberation Movement and its factions — and what that means is that many organizations and rebels who are not formally part of any important political party that runs the state of South Sudan are going to be out signed off this interim government. So, the do not have a say in terms of what the constitution looks like, what the electoral rules would be like, what level of societal participation would be involved in drafting the new constitution. And this we know from the past has really undermined any level of peace and long-term political stability. So, on that side, in South Sudan, we have to really be very cautious about whether this peace agreement will stick.

That, I think, will depend on what you are doing, Dr. Haddad, and that is to get the word out of what is happening in South Soudan. And the reason I say that is this kind of agreement is dependent on the international community and regional actors; Ethiopia, Uganda and others. The pressure of people saying, “Oh, wait a minute. We have to deal with issues of human rights violations.” We really have to incorporate civil society organizations. Without the general public, really, highlighting that and taking it seriously, we will have a very narrow peace agreement and there will be no incentive on the part of these other powers of states to really push the interim government, to really establish justice for those who had been killed and a form of punishment for those who had conducted the killing. And that is really essential to heal the wounds of what has become such a horrible, horrible and violent conflict. So, that is what we need to think about in terms of what is happening in South Sudan. Now, Sudan and the government of Sudan—Sudan up north—which people call GOS to distinguish it from GOSS (the Government of South Sudan) is also involved in two, long-standing conflicts that I think people know about, but had forgotten in terms of the news and even in the academic circles. Of course Darfur in the western part continues to be a source of conflict. As the conflict became more complicated, as the rebel groups became more fractionized, and as the central state in Khartoum has been able to play divide-and-rule among the different fractions, the international community has decided, “Oh, maybe it is too complicated of a situation to deal with.” There is unanimity -- the peacekeeping forces are still there, but it lacks financial support, it is very weak logistically and the humanitarian crisis and the killings and the violence continues in Darfur. So, that is something to keep in mind. Another source of conflict that I think is rarely discussed—if at all—is the violent conflict in the border region between South Sudan and Sudan proper. Most notably, it is an insurgency led by a group called Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North and they are waging a strong, violent insurgency in the areas we call the Nuba Mountains in South Kordofan. These are important border-line states. This is one of the most important insurgencies that has really determined the course of the central politics of Sudan. In 2011, something historic happened; this insurgency on the borders called the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North went into coalition the main faction, the rebel factions in Darfur, the two main rebel factions; the Justice and Equality Movement and Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North. And they formed a coalition called the Sudan Revolutionary Front. In the movement, there is negotiations between the government of Sudan, Al-Khartoum led by Omar al-Bashir and this coalition that has not been able to successfully militarily defeat the central government and its army. But since 2011, it has generated a lot of success in the battlefield. Although the aerial bombardments of the Nuba Mountains by the central government had devastated that part of that province on the border, which is in South Kordofan bordering South Sudan. So, now we have negotiations on going between the government of Sudan and what I would describe as the most important military opposition/coalition against the central government. The problem with that, that it is stalled for one important reason: the Sudan government in Khartoum and Bashir insist that they will only talk to this rebel group and the agenda should be limited to just a peace agreement revolving around the border areas, the provinces and the Nuba mountains in South Sudan. And that is something that Sudan Revolutionary Front opposes. Their political agenda is located at the center: they want to have a transition towards democracy, they want to have an interim government to oversee a new government in Khartoum. And of course that completely undermines the interests of Bashir and his group. In fact, one of the main reasons that they conducted this election in 2005, in order to generate legitimacy because they were fearful that the Sudan Revolutionary Front was gaining more and more support. So, the idea was to say that, “Look, Omar al-Bashir has been elected democratically,” which is not the case, it was a very low turn-out and it was clear that it was not successful because of the lack of support for the central government. The people of Sudan need to keep in mind that there is this historic confrontation between a rebel group that is in coalition in the border areas and the Darfur rebel groups. Really, the crux of the conflict now is whether this group will be able to convince the government and persuade it -- of course, through coercion and through their success in the military field -- whether they will be able to persuade Omar al-Bashir to open-up the political system, which is at this point of course very, very unlikely.

At the level of civil society, you know, going away a bit from the military confrontation, which is of course the most important in terms of determining the politics of Khartoum and al-Bashir. The second aspect is the national dialogue that is ongoing, or at least it has been announced. It is supposed to include not only these armed groups, but also the civilian political parties, including the National Umma Party, which many viewers know about its historic national party that has been dominantly civilian politics since its independence. And that party is supposed to join in with the armed movements and something called the Sudan Consensus Forces. The Sudan Consensus Forces represent civil society organizations and other political parties including the party run by Hassan Turabi, including the communist party, including a number of civil society organizations and coalitions. The idea is to have a dialog between not only the armed groups, but groups and coalitions in the civil society, to discuss arrangements that would lead to a new political dispensation and a new interim government and a more representative government in Khartoum. That is of course still ongoing, and it is unlikely to be successful, because the Bashir government has insisted that, once again, the agenda should be very limited, and they refuse to oversee elections that would legalize and allow these political parties and civil society groups to participate in a free and fair-fashion because they are holding on to power. So, we do want to really emphasize that there are two ongoing issues in Sudan in the north: a military confrontation between Khartoum and Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North in alliance with rebel groups in Darfur, and the kind of conflict between civil society groups, human rights groups and civilian political parties in Khartoum that are trying to pressure the government of Bashir to finally allow for some, more broad political representation. But the dialogue is very weak and it has yet to be put into effect as the government keeps saying that they are going to continue. As you probably know, last summer, the government imprisoned and detained a number of very prominent leaders of opposition groups and leaders of civil society and human rights groups. That really is a reflection of their unwillingness to open up the political system to civil society groups.

Finally, I think the question is: where do we go from here for Sudan? As you probably know from talking to me before, there are two elements to keep in mind in terms of how the government of Khartoum will respond to what is going on in Sudan and its opposition in terms of political change. And I think it hinges on two elements: number one, unsurprising to you or you listeners, that an important aspect or element would be the level of military of the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North. Or to be more specific the Sudan Revolutionary Forces—the alliance between the Darfur rebels and those on the border areas that call themselves the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North. So, right now there is a military stalemate, but even the discussion of this dialogue between Khartoum and SPLM-North really began in 2011, because there was a number of military success on the field on the part of Sudan People’s Liberation Movement-North. And so, like in any other political conflict and civil conflict, you know, the issue of military victory -- who wins specific military victories on the field – will determines the amount of pressure that Bashir will feel, in order to enter into a genuine dialogue that talks seriously about some form of regime change or transformation. The other element is that, unlike many other countries in the region, you know, the ones enduring civil conflict—notwithstanding Iraq or Syria—Sudan is undergoing a deep, deep economic crisis, and it has since it lost the majority of its oil with the separation. This is why I want your listeners to begin with understanding that all of this hinges on the consequences associated with the separation between north and south. And so, having lost a great deal of oil revenue, this has really determined the crisis that Khartoum faces. It is one of the reasons we are talking about talking to these other factions. The news out right now is that the government is planning to remove subsidies from grain and fuel, if you remember, because you published it in Jadaliyya at the time. In 2011 through 2012 and onto 2013, you had civic unrest associated with these kind of economic reforms in the context of economic austerity and inflationary prices—an inflation rate of over fifty percent. For a middle-class population and lower-middle class populations in Khartoum, not to mention the poor, this has really stirred a great deal of popular uprisings and civic unrest. And that is not something small, this is something that the Khartoum government considers.

Now, the absence of attention to all of these different elements -- including the economic situation and the popular unrest, and really, the unpopularity of the Bashir regime – is something that, because there is not any attention on it, it serves the core purposes of the Bashir regime. The “blackout,” so to speak, of what is going on and some of the details I just articulated, serves the purpose of the regime at the moment. Sudan is not a country that it is immune to international pressure, to the sanctions that are undergoing. So, in that sense: what people understand in terms of what is going on in the country is very important in terms of how the government relates to its domestic population. There are some countries that are more autonomous from the international community. Sudan, of course is not because of the economic crisis, because of the continued sanctions on the part of the European community and the United States. For that reason, what you are doing -- trying to get the word out about what is going on in Sudan -- will potentially have very important political consequences in terms of change. That is not something, unfortunately, that can be said for other countries. Of course, international intervention in other countries is usually, I believe, uniformly negative. So, we are talking about really understanding the kind of constrains that this government is confronting and the news “blackout” of what is going on serves the purpose of repressing these communities. And once again, I want to highlight what is at stake and that is we are talking about wars, not just popular uprisings. So, we are talking about civil conflicts in Darfur with people dying, and displacement and refugees. We are talking about al-Nuba Mountains that people do not know about, where aerial bombardments have killed hundreds of thousands and displaced many. And of course, we are talking about this ongoing, brutal civil conflict in South Sudan that has been going on for twenty months. So, none of this is too small, and that is why it is important and urgent to really publicize what is going on in Sudan. Is that good?

BH: Wow, Khalid. This is the easiest interview in the history of humankind. 

KM: [Laughs] good, that is good.

BH: I did not say anything. And you know what, it seems like we choreographed it, where the reality is that I have been trying to get in touch with you for so long. And this is the first time we have actually talked, which is remarkable. I am not sure what to say right now, because you gave us a very well-rounded picture. But, you are not off the hook. What I would love to do, next time, is to prepare a more systematic interview, one of the longer ones, even though this was actually not so much of a quick thought. It was pretty comprehensive in terms of an overview. I would love to talk more about specific issues from political economy, to gender, to questions having to do with the actual political landscape: internally and the kinds of forces that are fighting for power, if at all. And I would love to revisit this. But for now, I am extremely satisfied with your remarkable set of answers. Thank you so much.

KM: Thank you, habibi.  First of all, thank you for all what you have done for all of us. It is really important -- I mean that sincerely -- because we just do not have any outlets like this. I want to genuinely get – you know, people’s voices are being silenced and that has been going on for a long time. Hopefully, we will get these wonderful people from Khartoum in civil society who can really, kind of, start getting this attention and speaking out. As you know, the Sudanese are so politicized – like the Palestinians in the conflict – that even though they get a hard time there, they speak very freely.

BH: Yes, I know this, and I can see this here. I would love to connect with colleagues of yours in Khartoum, in Sudan and we would love to have you back. Professor Khalid Medani from McGill University, Shukran Ktir. We will be in touch.